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A highway without rest stops

Discussion in 'General' started by movazi, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    The psychology of staying clean after acute WD are over may be simple to understand yet hard to implement.

    After the initial WD symptoms subside and some normality is restored one gets this empty feeling as though life is a joyless ride on an endless high way with no rest stops. This I assume is what we call the PAWS, a brick wall we all hit after the acute WD symptoms are long over.

    As time goes on, the temptation to exit again for an opiate rest break gets stronger and more powerful, both physically and mentally.

    You see, so long one has never enjoyed a rest stop on life's highway, they just go on driving without complaining much. But once you exit and take a glimpse of heaven, the highway will not seem the same to you again, now you are an addict who will refuse to drive without taking further breaks : -)

    Obviously during the PAWS the brain chemistry has not yet returned to it's normal balance so there must be some chemical aspect to this. But a good portion of PAWS may purely be psychological. I have often noticed that when my mind is busy with some interesting task I hardly notice the PAWS.

    Passing this brick wall is probably the hardest task ahead of me, as it seems like nothing can give the fast and easily achieved pleasure as opium did. This is where the mind must constantly struggle and fight the temptation of an easy and rapid gratification.

    Nothing can match the euphoric pleasure of early days of our road to addiction. But we all know that we can no longer visit that heaven nor achieve that feeling again. Taking another dose will only get us to may be the outer gates of heaven (not even that) but we know damn well that by the next day we will be in the center of hell, for a rather long stay.

    Over two months now since I jumped. I took a nap yesterday afternoon, a short one, but the feeling, for some strange reason, was somewhat similar to a mild version of an opiate nap. Knowing I can still get this feeling without chemicals was worth all the pains of the past two months, it was the kind of feeling I used to get only when I was a child, during a lazy summer afternoon, by a small lake close to our home. I went over all that I ate or did during the past few days, could not find anything unusual. The nap simply happened and it probably will happen again, and again.

    So may be we must believe that different kinds of rest stops do exist in this new chemical free world and accept the fact that such rest stops will not happen on demand nor as fast as by poking a needle in the arm, puffing on a pipe, popping of a pill (hey, try to say this three times in a row :- ) .

    May be the brick wall will break on its own, under time pressure. May be all we must do is to give time a chance to do its job.

    For me, things in no way are rosy nor happy yet. But may be life is not supposed to be happy all the time, it probably will make for a boring life anyway. Light has no meaning without darkness, laughter can not exist without tears.

    Others have passed through the brick wall , we should be able to do it too.

    This time, Time is on our side.
  2. RunTheMachine

    RunTheMachine Well-Known Member

    "Nature abhors a vacuum."

    Not my quote (and I don't know who penned it), but it speaks to the exact point of your post, Movazi. I think this applies to any/and all things that we once experienced so fully and frequently in our lifetime, that are abruptly (finally!!) removed from our constant world... be those 'things' positive or negative. The 'hole' left in the wake longs to be sated with something of equal impact on our physical and psychological being. Junkie, athlete, workaholic, recent divorcee, serial killer... when that which gratifies our life and our mind is stripped away, be it healthy or UNhealthy for us to disassociate ourselves and abstain from said 'things', it is pure Nature that the 'joyless' void and emptiness become a gaping maw, and that we starve to fill it with something meaningful... and rewarding.

    I think that's the truest logic as to why some people completely entrench and ensconce themselves in the Step Programs... Nature abhors a vacuum.

    Good post. =)

    Much peace,
  3. AumuA

    AumuA Well-Known Member

    Yeah, it is PAWS, and it does pass. It's not so much a brick wall but we make it out to be like that.
    It might seem that way, but it's not true. The whole memory of it ever being some heavenly, euphoric awesomness fades into the background and is replaced by the reality. When I think about getting high.. it's mostly those last days I remember, when I was in misery just after pushing the plunger in. I don't know about you, but that's where it took me. Someone here said to me that the thought of getting high to them was now as significant as the thought of a garden hose, and I know that state is possible, and I work toward it.
    Hold on to that! Cause that's the sh*t right there. That's the real deal, your endorphine. Stick with it, and that comes back more. There are moments today when I feel so great that I really wonder why I ever wanted to get high. The natural stuff is that good, it really is the spiritual experience.

    Just stay clean, no matter what. Try to do the next right thing, and you'll get that feeling more. There are ways to increase your chances. I do work 12 steps, but I am a firm believer that that program is for those who want it, and is not for anyone else. Seek whatever works for you, and do that. You will succeed.
  4. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    Hi Machine

    Sometimes a simple phrase becomes a powerful tool in ones coping mechanism. "nature abhors a vacuum", laws of physics support such statement as well. can't get it out of my head now :- ) . Thx for the phrase.
  5. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member


    Thanks for words of encouragement. I wonder if there is anything that can really increase the brain's own endorphin production. This is what the medical establishment should work on instead of coming out with more sophisticated chemicals to feed the opiate receptors (like Sube or Methadone).

    Unfortunately, our health care system has turned into maintenance oriented drugs rather than cures. It is not only in this field, look at other best selling drugs for heart ailments, diabetic or ...... , they are all geared towards maintenance. I guess, in a capitalist system, a drug that would cure is not economically viable.
  6. banned

    banned Guest

    I do agree we have a system that is extremely rigid, that puts safety before innovation, and overall, that is probably a good thing. It’s a careful balance of capitalism vs government controls. The FDA does require items go through extensive clinical evaluations, and they are certainly not perfect, as we see the personal injury commercials to prove that point every day. Where the liability should be held, that is another question.. given the half billion dollars spent on research, trials and evaluations, sometimes per drug or device. Why the creator should be held liable when they jumped through hoops with the FDA, and to both parties knowledge, indicate a therapeutic value that outweighs the risks. The FDA is heavily lobbied, and I have no doubt, that corruption and influence peddling exist, just like our national government.

    I don't buy that people are not looking for cures. If I had a cure for cancer, I would sell it for 10 million dollars per dose, I would sell it from a country that I had to answer to no one, and I would only give the formula from my office (Take that intellectual property China) I would be considered the most evil son-of-a-b*tch in the world. I would also be one of the richest in the world. I believe we are heading in the direction of cures, with genetic mapping still under construction. There is incentive to create a cure, as I just pointed out in my example. (That is not a likely business model; I used the extremes to make my point). They will come one day, and they will be very expensive, that is the evolution of medicine.

  7. JamesF

    JamesF Well-Known Member

    No offense, but I hope you're NOT the guy who finds the cure! lol I've enjoyed a lot of business and financial success in my life, and I'm grateful. But I'm more grateful that I finally matured enough to lose all that "horny to win" nonsense. It's just greed and blind ambition. No wonder people thought I was an a-hole.

    Success without integerity and character is just an ugly thing to watch. People who think unregulated capitalism will work to the benefit of all people, don't know much about business or people.
  8. banned

    banned Guest

    I have mentioned over and over there are breakthroughs every day on ODR. We make connections, and finally, identify ourselves exactly as what we are.. James F is proof to this.

    No confusion here. Capitalism doesn't work to the benefit of all people, and that is their own faults.

    I have no doubt, your personal success is equal to that of which you make your points on this board... :)

  9. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    If John, an innocent young healthy 25 year old, is on a runaway train with a massive bomb, headed towards a station with 10 people waiting, it is perfectly justified to blow up the train, with John in it, before it reaches the station.

    Take the same John, he can save ten people by donating his liver, kidney, heart. etc. , yet it is not ok to kill John in order to save these 10 people.

    Why is it ok for Mr. Gates to charge $100/user to let them install Windows but it is not ok for Dr. Bieber to charge $10mil/cancer patient with his new cure ?

    And if James is a successful business man who has repented then why does he not give his wealth back to Obama to spread it among the less fortunate souls in our society ?

    If Dr. Beiber finds the cure for cancer I assure you the society will hang him by the bulls till he divulges the secrets of his remedy :- ) , no matter how civilized such society is.

    James does have a valid point though and this is exactly why the pharma industry will not move towards cures. Genetics have not produced any silver bullets yet (they have in agriculture but the business model there is rather different, like Monsanto). There is no way a company can charge $mil/patient and not be vilified by many who have reached James compassionate state of mind. That is why such companies will not invest hundreds of millions (the cost of bringing a drug to the market) on ultra expensive cures, hence all we see is geared towards maintenance (no conspiracy here, just how the system works).

    As to the main topic of this thread, I felt better during the week than this past two days. This process is somewhat elusive and confusing, good feelings come and go and there is no special pattern nor reason (at least none that I can find) to justify the days that one feels normal vs. the lousy days !!
  10. JamesF

    JamesF Well-Known Member

    I think that's one of the most difficult things about opioid withdrawal, both acute and post-acute. A lot of the time it feels like one step up and two steps back. Very frustrating. Tends to beat you down. Withdrawal from other drugs isn't easy or anything, but it does seem to follow a straighter trajectory. But the good news is it does get better over time, even though some days it doesn't feel like it.

    Still, you must be doing pretty well to have come up with that post. You put more thought into it than I think my brain would be capable of.
  11. banned

    banned Guest

    I don't know Movazi... That example seems a little flawed, with the information you provided, we can assume in the first of the two scenarios, that he is going to die in the very near future anyway. This example you used brought to mind 9-11. We had jets scrambling to make that very thing happen, thank god for the heroes of flight 93, their sacrafice has changed the course of history. Little did they have a clue how their decision and bravery saved this country from a truly catastropic divide. The pride that Americans take in our country, has certainly degraded over the past 100 years, and certainly over the past 20.. We have moved from a nation of self sacrafice, commitment to the greater good, god, and country, To a more socialist nanny state, in which fairness reigns above all else, we don't have winners in games, entitlement society, and incentivising being a loser. We now have people on the opposite side of the spectrum, sounding like the very other side of the spectrum!

    The very things that a lot of people find as caring, warm and fuzzy, and just feel like the "right" thing to do, is going to lead to our detriment. I fear for the condition of our nation, and like all great empires in the past, we are falling.

    Movazi, dont assume there are not amazing cures right around the corner. You and I may know nothing about these cures, as the amount of money and resources involved justify a high degree of confidentiality. Companies are investing hundreds of millions in research, studies, and approval. And for their investment, we give them exclusive rights to that drug for a period of time, so they can monopolize the market, recoup their costs, and make a profit. With no profit, what would the incentive be for a company to do the hard work.

    As i mentioned, the example in my previous post was to make a point. There is no doubt, our new nanny state government would put their two cents on the business model.

    Anyways, Hope all is well

  12. AumuA

    AumuA Well-Known Member

    I think that in a general sense, drugs are not usually cures at all. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but to me as an addict the point has been driven home pretty succinctly that drugs are not the real cure. A fix does not fix.. the underlying problem. Nothing has let me down so much as using drugs. It's possible that the actual cure for cancer might not be a pill, and might not even be a thing that can be sold. If our Dr. NotJustifyin did come up with the cure , who's to say that being in contact with the very cure itself would not transform his attitude completely? If we're waiting for big pharma to come up with the answer then.. that's some misplaced trust cause those guys are not exactly good citizens on this planet.

    Anyways politics? On my ODR? eh..

  13. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    I went on this site The Great Suboxone Debate | The Fix that discusses the views of Dr. Steven Scanlan, Dr. Alan Leshner and Dr. Jeffrey Junig, all experts in opiate addiction. First page was not too bad, but the statistics on the 2nd page (whether one goes through 5 steps or 12 steps , using Bupe or Methadone, tapering or not) were very discouraging.

    When rolling a dice the chance of getting a 1 is 1/6th . But in reality the dice will either rest on number 1 or it will not. Hence the chances to roll a 1 is 50/50 :- ) It feels much better now.
  14. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    About ten weeks now since I took the last .5 mg of Sube.

    I wonder why time goes by faster the older we get ? May be time itself has acceleration.

    A year, during childhood, was an eternity. Now a days by the time I get used to put the right year in my check book half the year is over. I can hardly keep track of what day of the week it is. Then you listen to radio about anniversaries of some events, like the fall of the Berlin wall, I remember the celebrations on the fallen wall, feels like it was about 10 or 12 years ago, then I hear the date, 1989, 23 years ago ! Damn it went by fast.

    On one hand it is scary that not much time is left to live. On the other, for now, I am glad it is going fast. It no longer seems such a long punishment even if these WD or the PAWD will last for a year.

    Already bracing myself for the PAWS. The restless leg is still there, some sneezing, sweating, chills and fatigue, albeit in a lesser degree than the first month.

    Restless leg is the worse. Took 10 mg of Imodium yesterday and it worked, the restless leg was gone. For some reason it takes few hours though for it to work. Imodium is a form of opiate but it does not cross the blood brain barrier, hence no effect on central nervous system. It apparently effects only on the digestive opiate receptors (and there are many nerve cells in the digestive system). Not sure if it is ok to take Imodium, as it may cause the digestive system to rebel once I stop taking it.
  15. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member


    I do not think US is going down. Empires last for centuries and the US empire has just started.

    Proof is in the numbers. US debt is $15 Trillion and rising by $1.2T a year. Yet the Dollar is still the only viable global reserve currency and is holding it's value even at rates close to zero. That is only because of US position as the sole military super power. Look at what we are doing in the Middle East, no one can stop US and what it dictates. Syria's Assad will soon fall and then it will be Iran's turn.

    US is still a sleeping giant. The cures you correctly mentioned are a good example of future technologies in which US will be dominant. The rest of the world can make toys, socks, cars and TVs, those are old technologies. The future belongs to biotech, nanotech, robots and lasers, satellites, and thousands of other inventions and innovations in which US and it's allies would rule.

    I also do not see the past self sacrifices you are talking about. Flight 93 was probably shut down (circumstances dictated so) , and if it was not, then those on board did what they had to do as part of our self survival instinct. Human nature has not changed this past 100 years, back then people were as selfish as we are today, so no one really sacrificed anything.

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