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Amino acids/Neurotransmitters key for Recovery

Discussion in '~ Articles ~ Info ~ Links ~ Data ~' started by spring, Mar 17, 2004.

  1. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    M' Camera



    As for our #'s I would say that after today we are still 100% on the detox of those who finished the 10 days. John had a great day. He still has alot of challenges but if he can now follow Arlene's B & C he will not have to come back to A. His sleep patterns will come back if he will quit worrying about not sleeping, stop taking things to sleep which will stop the waking up in a panic. There are other anxiety issues that he has learned better how to address. This is a wonderful man and what he needs is your friendship and support.

    According to the times of most of your post, there are a lot of you not sleeping very well

    As for my Data every patient is drug tested throughout treatment and is drug tested when they come back for boosters which usually covers four months they recieve phone calls from my staff on a regular basis, at least once a month for the first year after that we leave the contact initiation up to them. On each phone call they answer a list of questions that include how they feel have they used but more important what their actions have been in recovery. Actions speak so much louder than words.
    Our treatment is designed to accelerate a persons recovery. It is now up to John to take the steps that he needs to follow and remember Arlene's B and C
    mike
     
  2. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Hi Manrays ~

    Yes...you'd be very right. I am not simplistic nor naive. I have, however, simplified which is different than being a simpleton. Hard to be naive after 22 years of full on active addiction which resulted in losing everything, yes? And part of that experience has left me with a hard edge which I work on every day to soften.

    And there are just some posts that I want to spit coffee all over...and thats when I go to the to the A, B, C's as a template. And even then, I am still liable to spray the monitor.

    Personally, I had and still have a lot of mantra's that I repeat. And they've changed in meaning...changed in what they first meant during detox and what they mean today...much further down the road.

    Do I believe I can think my way clean? Nope...not in the least. I can envision all I want, but until I do it by stepping away from the opiates, I ain't got a clue as to the action required.

    Do I wish that I could have been Audrey Hepburn? Sure...nice daydream. And yet, I have no expectation that the tooth fairy will come, snap her fingers and say phooff...you're Audrey Hepburn. If I want to be like Audrey Hepburn, I have to model myself on Audrey Hepburn...and that takes change...change through action. Work. I can tsk tsk the treatment of whales all I want (from the couch), but until I get my arse off the couch and actually do something about it...take action and work for change...its all meaningless. Sound & fury signifying nothing.

    I think a lot of this is magical thinking...and that's infantile. That's like envisioning a Mercedes will be delivered to my door because I prayed hard enough for it. Bartering. Rather, if I really find a Mercedes all that integral to my life, I can get up off my ass and work for it. 'Course I could always marry for it. In either case, it requires action.

    The mantra I used during detox & PAWS was This Too Shall Pass. Repeated it until I thought I would throw up. AND at the same time I repeated it....I didn't pickup...I put my feet down every day...and got on with treatment...and stepwork. I dragged my ass...but by G-d...I put one foot in front of the other. I had a vision of me coming out the other side...and inorder to see that vision to fruition...I did the work.

    Today, the mantra of This Too Shall Pass has taken on a very different connotation. It means that bad days will pass...mundane days will pass...and great days will pass. Everything passes...the idea is for them to pass without me giving them more power than they're worth.

    What I do believe is that once clean & sober...there is a change in perception...when we work toward that change. Feeeeelings, for example. I can have a feeeeeling...but hell, I don't have to run with that feeeeeling. I envision a particular negative thought on a wave. That wave gets further and further away from me until its sitting out in the middle of the ocean somewhere. Yes...I can think it out by not acting out on it. That's the juxtoposition for me today in recovery.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>
     
  3. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    Tuba,

    I know how frustrating it can be when someone has something that you want and you can't have it. Your insults don't bother me and you as of this post have received all the time of mine that you will get. I answer your questions and you insult my answers. My guess is you don't have $12,000 or the time or ability to come from Iran to the US. I am really sorry about that.

    You see Tuba I don't care if you believe what we do works, because 100's of people the past two years have, and they have come from Dubai and Canada, and the UK and they will be able to sleep at night and they will be able to become interested in life.

    My friend you need to become interested in life again. Go see a movie, tell your loved ones that you love them, travel, come to the US, you can stay with me as my quest.

    You do have the possibility to apologize by PM and I will try and work something out for you
    mike
     
  4. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    another sleepless night.I turned on the radio at midnight (Eastern time) to discover that the morning news was on.I looked outside and it was daylight.Perchance i dont reside in the epicentre of it all( that is lat 34.1W long 84W).Sorry to scotch,literally the sleepless tangent but i and the chihuahua etc are in what is referred to as europe.No offence taken re sleep as i am sure left to interpret times of posting one could easily(and correctly) draw the same conclusion.

    I am a great fan of magical realism.The first chapter of Gabriel Garcia Marquez 100 annos de soledad is perhaps in my mind one of the best openings ever with the final denouement of ice.Magical realism is nice and thrills lots of kids and big kids too with erstwhile interpretations of natural phenomena(still hoping to catch the a.borealis this year).The problem is that the lay/folk interpretations of said phenomena can be lie in the world of magical realism.The problem i suspect Mr Tubalkain has is that whereas Marquez writes fiction and we accept it as such for it professes to be nothing else,there would appear to be a great number of therapies etc out there that by a function of the dubeity of claim,effect,sceince and outcome that leave perhaps the more scientifically trained mind unsatisfied.I feel an even-handed precis of Execucare would be that it appears to be run by deeply committed individuals who are seeking to enhance patient outcomes in a diffcult field.Clearly you are not a charity and that is your business.Given the loft principles that you appear to aspire to does it not seem a little strange that when it comes to basic science,methodologies,end points etc that their is very little offered in terms of verifiable evidence.As far as i am aware you are not using anything patentented and if you were rolling a 100% wonder cure out slowly is clearly not great clinical sense.It is perhaps part of addict culture that they can become well informed and versed in the penumbra of science.Do not expect them to be anything other than sceptical.That is of course unless they are desperate.

    The idea of clients coming from Dubai interests me a lot as I would be intrigued to discover what they were on.Prof. courtesy precludes that naturally.Dubai has prob the most draconian drug laws in the world.You can end up in jail with prozac on prescription.Access to hard drug by UAE nationals would be interesting.

    Regards D Chopra tis but a further manifestation of the great yawning emptiness in christian societies.Do our muslim brothers devour deepak? Try the God Delusion by R Dawkins infinitely more useful for the world we live in than deepak or the odd abraham woman(cant you americans see through that)

    Anyway keen to entertain transparent science but happy to read magical realism.

    Cheers
    M'camera
     
  5. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    What this odd Abraham American woman can see through is your bigotry.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>
     
  6. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    not quite sure how suggesting the channelling of celestial ephemera etc is perhaps less magical than it first appears should constitute bigotry.If that is what bigotry is then can i have a membership card.Note i have at no point denied anyones right to seek guidance/comfort etc as they choose.Yes I think all the tough-feely choperactrics is lamentable but please feel free to pursue this course.Clearly if i am a bigot i must be some kind of tolerant bigot.Bit of contradiction in terms.In any case dotn wish to spread ill will there is enough about sans moi.

    Cheers
    M'camera
     
  7. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Perhaps you would like to reframe what you meant in terms that I am more likely to understand...and I'm referring specifically to the statement that caused my uncomfortability.

    Be guided that I am a simple woman.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>
     
  8. arlenewla

    arlenewla Well-Known Member

    Then I would suggest that Manrays be far more careful with the clarity with which he writes when one is holding forth on religion (Christianity & Muslims) and then seguing to G-d Delusion.

    Given that we had a discussion about Christmas on this thread and the reason why I celebrate it, my posts on this read, the reference to odd Abraham woman was not a stretch for me. As for the chauvinistic reference to Americans being unable to see...

    A tolerant bigot is very much an oxymoron. You know, like jumbo shrimp.

    Frankly, I find the tenor of some of comments teetering close to noblesse oblige.

    Where's cup of coffee emoticon when you need it? And with that, I will take my leave for a bit. Time to buy the donuts for my girls.

    Arlene
    Free;12-25-02


    <center>THERE IS NOTHING SO REMARKABLE AS BEARING WITNESS
    TO THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT
    </center>
     
  9. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    i come from a background where manners maketh the man so to say,that i should seek to actively cause offence would trouble me as it suggests my normal moral arbiters are askew.That i do not beleive is the case.It would appear thay a post was interpreted as self-referential when it certainly was not.The american medium type lady is mrs hicks and yes the whole abraham-hicks show is a little silly.I shant seek to speculate on the reward cycles at play there.My post was not ambiguous nor do i believe anything else i said was inappropriate.So no apology there.That anyone should find my content unacceptable,well makes me wonder why.What is it elicitinng in them.Arlene i value you input and would hope to continue in further discourse towards mutual goals.

    Cheers
    M'camera
     
  10. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi,
    oily..yes snake oily..yes best milked from biodynamic organically reared western diamondbacks,3 days post new moon,by a virgin who is being intructed by some post-menopausal women channeling deepak..sorry forgot at midnight,if you forget the midnight thing it loses all potency and value.And what of the diamondbacks well its a fairtade agreement so they do nicely in frozen organically reared meeses out of it.

    Sadly i am not even near the truth of it.Frankly i think old Comrade Zobin's ket. and strap-on thingy method followed by od is more scientific just cant quite work out why the chap needed to be 3/52 opiate free beforehand.Looked like fun.Evidence value zero however.Pity.

    M'camera
     
  11. KB

    KB Well-Known Member

    i just returned home from seeing my sub dr. who is an addictionologist who's been treating addicts for 18 years and has been using sub for 8 years. very knowledgeable--anyway, i asked him about this amino acid therapy--mainly oral or IV?? he said the science is there to prove aminos can increase the NT's like dopamine, serotonin etc... BUT he said the expensive, $12,000 IV "treatment" is a scam. he said taking the aminos orally works just fine and there is absolutely NO proof that mega IV doses "bath the receptors". we get our aminos mainly from meat protein (or other forms of protein)--it is digested in our stomach and absorbed mainly in the small intestine. saying that we need to "by-pass the gut" is ridiculous. aminos are very cheap to make and he said these clinics doing the mega dose IV treatment are scams. people preying on desperate addicts. i told him about exeucare giving 500 GRAMS (yes, grams!)of vit. c in 1 bag of iv fluid--he was shocked and said not only is that absolutely ridiculous, it could be dangerous. there are many well done scientific studies proving that there are conditions that can be treated by using aminos--depression responds very well, along with anxiety, pain, insomnia, parkinson's, malnutrtion, fatigue etc...but basically these IV amino clinics are just a big scam--you'd be better off just drinking some whey protein isolate shakes!

    robin
     
  12. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi K'bear,
    well said your addictionologist.Remember the central line of the english chap i was musing about that and why he had a central line well my guess is to counter the acidity of the vitc. Assuming he had a 2% vit c solution that woukd give a pH of say 2.8( remember HCl in stomach is pH 2).Its fairly acid.Now a 2% solution is 2gm per 100ml extrapolate that and you get 20gm/litre.That is still 1/25th of the Excel protocol.In the first case it's overkill and the latter well not sure it has a name.Oh yes there is not alot of buffering with much else.

    Cheers
    M'camera
     
  13. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    All I can tell you Robin is your Dr is wrong as he writes you another script for suboxone. good luck

    mike
    mike
     
  14. Jymi

    Jymi Well-Known Member

    I hope Mike is still here.....


    I was wondering why this approach can't be done via oral administration? Is there some sort of metabolic process that stops the proper forms of the amino chelate from passing the blood brain barrier or working properly after it's been through the stomach? It seems to me you could just get these aminos, take high enough amounts to get en vitro levels the same as they would be through an IV and start the repair process that way.

    ??? Jymi

    -------------------------
    Walk back to the place you chose to run from, what we deny become our demons. Radiate love to all, that includes you.

    In the province of the mind, what the mind believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind there are no limits.
     
  15. Jymi

    Jymi Well-Known Member

    PS.. At the ibogaine clinic many patients have gone to do this therapy afterward, especially self medicating depressives and so far there has been good feedback.. Being none of these people are going through withdrawal because that has already been taken care of I don't know from personal experience how well that works.. but as for mental focus and mood elevation it seems to work very well combined with ibogaine detox.

    -------------------------
    Walk back to the place you chose to run from, what we deny become our demons. Radiate love to all, that includes you.

    In the province of the mind, what the mind believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind there are no limits.
     
  16. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    Jymi,

    My understanding is this. Dopamine does not cross the blood brain barrier but phenylalanine and tyrosine do. When you take oral aminos or just normal nutrition, you get nutritional spikes, with nutrients being taken to the cells. Cells do not store nutrients. The problem with addiction rest with the dopamine receptors, which have become down regulated or damaged. To positively effect these receptors you need a more continual exposure to an optimal nutritional state. The administering of these aminos without the presence of other aminos via IV works the best.

    The abstract and poster of our first study was presented at the national meeting of the Society of Neurosciences this past Wednesday in Washington DC. It was presented by Dr. Susan Broom at 10:00.
    mike
     
  17. manrayscamera

    manrayscamera Well-Known Member

    Hi Mr Sanders,
    trusy you are well the washington conf is pretty heady stuff so well done.Do you know how it got on?. I had a look at the poster and there were a few points that maybe you could feedback to the authors etc;

    1) the poster cites lack of data on efficacy and safety of the NTR method.All fine and good but correct me if i am wrong your atlanta outfit cites 80-100% cure.

    2)Semantics it may be but there is a big difference between demonstratinf efficacy and safety and showing that a ?litre bag of bespoke aminos has little abuse potential.Of course it has no abuse potential.

    3)To say NTR is arguably the most recognizeable and reputable method is an argument in itself given it is at best in the domain of putative therapy/alternative medicine.Realistically a 100% wonder cure would have had better impact unless it is a cure akin to say that for dental caries ie a cure that dentists have a vested interest to stiffle.You may well be right.Posters like that are a step in the right direction

    4)I think many people will have issues with the wording ie " all able to achieve an abrupt cessation of abused substance immediately prior to the 10 day therapy".Not quite sure why they went on with the therapy then?

    5)The 10 days is also an issue as after 10 day of cold turkey they'd be pretty much fine.

    Just some thoughts.Thoughts i am sure may well ahve been raised in DC and in deed thoughts that warrant reflection if one is seeking to be taken seriously as i am sure you are and in that i wish you all the best.

    Re the Jymi query as i see it NTR says that gut absorption of aminos produces nutritional spikes ie surges of aminos that hit the brain at once and the brain cant deal with them hence the NTR iv approach which allows a ? better delivery of aminos and hence neurotransmitters ie NTR seems to favour dopamine.Sounds quite plausible.There are a few things that i might question here;

    1)wont a big iv surge be far bigger than any nutritional spike?.

    2)The blood brain barrier exists to protect the brain from these and other types of spikes.

    3)Storage of formed neurotransmitters does occur in the brain.Not huge amounts but it happens.

    4)Your and the presumed NTR hypothesis is that some extraneous drug is used and sets off reward pathways involving dopamine,With time these pathways become heightened,engrained even upregulated.Stop the drug and you have hungry dopamine pathways thet need to be fed.All weel and good but its not he whole story as for example there is plenty of work to show surprisingly that smoking isn't dopamine dependent

    5)You mention potential interactions between different amino acids.This is indeed true and a very good point.I dont know what is in the NTR bags.I do not know how Dr Hitt tailors them individually.There are no papers on it.etc.Not knowing whats in the bags who knows what is going on.The amino therapy by Excel (it seriously does have 1/2 kg vit c in it in a litre bag) whose contents are static and i am aware of has the potential for causing conflict and being self-confounding.Without know what's in abag i nor any one else woulc not realistically have aclue whats going on.Do you know what's in a bag Mr Sanders?.I ask that question lest someone have an allergic reaction and you dont know what the've been given.

    In any case i would genuinely be interested to hear how the poster went down and certainly consider it is an excellent step in the right direction for the NTR group.Like Deepak et al say the longest journey starts with the first step etc..

    Cheers
    M'camera
     
  18. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    Tubal,

    If you go to sfn.org., on the left hand side click on the banner with neuroscience meeting planner. Click advanced search, For author, speaker put last name broom, 1st intial s and check by wednesday 19th am. This should take you to the abstract.

    Mike
    mike
     
  19. doublefrench

    doublefrench New Member

    To Mr Sanders

    I very much understand the lifetime battle with addiction and the need to reformat the cerebrum and the positive effects it must have..

    I do however have a question..I have researched a little into the procedure and my worries are for the initial stages.
    Now I have never used oxycontin but with heroine the withdrawals are much more acute in my opinion that is.
    This being said , would it not be wise to use some sort of rapid detox and then administer the amino s intravenously?

    A place called tavid ( http://www.tavad.net/heroin_detoxification.htm) has a program that does just this and I wonder if this might not be more humane ,so to speak, than going at it cold turkey.. I know you have said that it is like a mild flu, but I will tell you that this flu is the worse nightmare of all users and the driving force behind its abuse and fear of stopping.

    I think the process are the same but perhaps the symptoms in initial phase are much easier than your approach.
    Is there a reason why you do not also use this procedure and in your opinion what are your thoughts on Tavid in comparison to your treatment..

    Thank you as well for taking the time to respond.
    God bless
     
  20. sandersw

    sandersw Well-Known Member

    The action is in the ventral tagmental area and the nucleus accumbens. This is where the dopamine receptors have become damaged and down regulated. providing a sustained optimal nutritional state here allows the brain to heal this area.

    This process reduces withdrawals eliminates cravings and restores clarity of mind and sense of well being.

    mike
     

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