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new to sub

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by RS8877, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    Hi
    I'm new to this forum and haven't read too much yet so prlease fogive this question as I'm sure its bee asked 1,000's BUT I need to know for me.
    I just started to take suboxone 8mg...2 films (half film in am.. and half at lunch)
    Next week will be week 2 -- can I just stop from there, or taper down, etc
    I'm on subs bc I needed something to help from oxy & perks I was taking

    So long question short -- after 2 weeks and now no w/d symptoms from Oxy & Perk -- can I stop taking the Subs all together or do I need to taper since I've been on for 2 weeks?

    thanks
     
  2. getoffsubs

    getoffsubs Well-Known Member

    I'm not quite sure from your post if you are taking 8 total mgs per day or 16 total mgs per day but either way, you are likely taking way more than you need to.

    I would recommend a quick taper. You should be able to drop to a total of 4mgs per day without any major symptoms. Then down to 2mgs within a few days. Suboxone has a very long half life, over 36 hours, meaning every day you take it, you are increasing the total mgs available in your body. Also, I would highly recommend you try to dose your 4mgs (then 2mgs) just once per day. Due to the long half life, you don't need to take it multiple times per day.

    Once you get to 2mgs per day, you should be able to jump if you do it quickly and don't stay on the sub for more than another 10 days or so. You will have some symptoms, but you'll survive and be better for it.

    You don't want to get stuck on subs as they are worse than the oxys and percs you were taking.

    Good luck, keep us posted and keep asking questions. I'm sure others with better advice will chime in soon.
     
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  3. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    It depends on what your goal is. The only way to find out for sure is to stop and see how you feel!
    I would I Aline that if you just stop, you will experience w/d symptoms. How bad those symptoms will be, I don't know. They may not be bad at all or they may be a little rough... But, either way you Will survive!

    Maybe try stopping for a few days and see if you can hand,e the w/d? Or if you are trying to avoid as much w/d as possible, then I would suggest a quick taper.

    You could drop straight from 16mg to 8mg and you probably would barely notice it. Then from 8mg, I would maybe cut 2mg at a time, maybe once a week, until you get to 2mg. The. Start trying to skip days.
    Or you could do a much faster taper. You could start by skipping a couple/few days and then only take 2mg. And then taper from there. Or you could just drop straight down to 2mg now without skipping any days...
    I used to drop my dose from 8mg straight down to 2mg a day all the time (like every month) without any w/d symptoms. And I know sme friends who do the same thing without any w/d symptoms too.

    This is a pretty good taper plan, check it out - https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=94357

    Also, I would highly recommend cutting you suboxone dose to One time per day. It has a super long half life and there is absolutely no reason to be taking it twice a day. The only thing taking it twice a day is going to do is develop an addictive behavior and make it harder to quit. (because your brain gets used to that 2x a day dosing and then creates mental w/d symptoms when you try to stop). It even says right on the suboxone website to only take it ONCE per day. Trust me on this, it is MUCH easier to get over that bad habit Right Now than if you continue to keep taking it twice a day...

    In the end, it doesn't really matter How you stop taking the suboxone, as long as you stop taking it! Everyone gets to that point in a different way, so whatever works for you. Just don't stay on it long, otherwise all you did was trade one opiate addiction for another.
     
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  4. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    thank you BOTH... to be clear I'm taking a TOTAL of 8mg/day -- split into 2 doses ... so the 8mg I cut into 2 and take half in the AM and the other HALF a couple of hours later

    so you feel after only being ON for 2 weeks I'll have wd's (having wd's from the OXY and Perk is why i took these darn things) -- I just want to stop everything but i can't deal with the wd's from the oxy and if this is worse, ohh man!! i'm in trouble

    ok, so i'll taper and tomorrow instead of taking a ttoal of 8mg, maybe I'll just do 4 mg a day for a few days and see how I do then, and if good drop to 2 mg a day for a few days, then Jump off...?
     
  5. Bonita

    Bonita Well-Known Member

    sooner the better... you don't want to have to kick a bigger habit.
     
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  6. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    if theres no HIGH.. then is it physical dependence that I could develop on these things ??
     
  7. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    Yes, its a physical dependence. But you will also develop a mental dependence to them if you stay on them.
    And Yeah, there will be withdrawal. You just traded your oxy habit for a suboxone habit. There is NO WAY off opiates without going through some withdrawal.

    The reason you were able to avoid the w/d from oxy is because suboxone is an opiate (opioid actually). That is why it was able to keep you from going into withdrawal when you stopped taking the oxy. You traded one opiate for another.
    The only way there would be no withdrawal from the suboxone is if to would have only taken a few tiny little pieces to take the edge off the oxy w/d and help you make it through.


    BUT, suboxone withdrawal is NOT as bad as oxy w/d is. Suboxone is only a partial agonist opioid. Oxy is a full agonist opiate. Which means the w/d is more intense for oxy.
    suboxone w/d is more mild, but it can last longer than w/d from a short acting opiate because suboxone is a long acting opioid so it takes longer to leave your body. Usually the rule of thumb is the more intense the w/d, the sooner you get better.


    I would start today by going to Once per day dosing. You need to break that mental habit of needing to take opiates multiple times per day. The half life on suboxone is like 30-40 hours (or longer). That is how long it takes for just half the dose you took today to leave your body. The longer you stay on it, the more that gets stacked up in your system, which is why you want to get off it ASAP!


    Just start tapering now. Cut your dose to one time per day. Let your body get used to that for a few days (or a week) and then start lowering your dose.
    Like I said, I used to cut from 8mg a day straight down to 2mg a day, without any withdrawal. So you may also be able to do the same. But if not, then just taper. Cut 2mg at a time, give your body a few days to adjust and cut down again. The sooner you get off, the better. The less time you are on it the less your body will get addicted to the suboxone.


    Dont be scared of the withdrawal. It's not that bad. The fear of the withdrawal was worse than the actual withdrawal was for me.
    You have to pay the price if you truly want to be opiate free. There is no completely pain free way off opiates! Whether you go cold turkey or you taper, yo will have to fight through some w/d pains.
     
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  8. getoffsubs

    getoffsubs Well-Known Member

    Good advice in the previous post - not sure I can top it or even add much.

    Fear of withdrawals kept me on suboxone for 7 years. You can read my story in the thread below this one if interested, but let's just say I was able to taper down and had very minor withdrawal symptoms. I'm embarrassed to say that fear kept me addicted for almost a decade. Don't allow anything like this to happen to you.

    I'd recommend taking as little sub as possible from here on out. Take 2mgs and give it an hour. If it holds you and you can function okay, go on with your day. If you feel you can't function, take 1 or 2 more mgs after the first hour. Be careful though, don't let your mind tell you that you need more. If you are able to function, don't take any more. You may have some minor wds while tapering and that's okay. Chills, sneezing, minor stomach issues, some sleep issues - it's all part of it and you aren't going to get off scot free.

    Since you have 8mg films, this is how I would cut mine:

    - Carefully cut the foil package with a razor or scissors so you can use it to hold the leftovers.
    - For 4mgs, fold the film in half (make sure your hands are completely dry). Cut along the center score line created by folding.
    - For 2mgs, fold again and cut
    - Below 2mg, it gets trickier, you can try to fold again, just make sure you end up with as close to equal sized pieces as possible.

    - Below 1mg, it can get very tricky, but I successfully cut a single film into 32 nearly equal sized pieces to get to 1/4mg. Since you haven't been on it that long, you shouldn't need to go anywhere near that low. I've heard many people say they jumped off at 1 or 2mgs without major withdrawal issues.

    Take the extra pieces and put them back in the foil package. Fold the top over and tape it shut. It should protect them.

    At some point, you can also try extending the time between doses. Rather than every 24 hours, try going 30 or 36 hours. See how your body reacts. If you start going into major withdrawals, take the absolute minimum dose needed to ease the wds.

    Also, I assume you are seeing a doctor. A lot of the doctors out there really don't understand Suboxone and they typically prescribe too high a dose for too long a period. Just remember when it comes to Sub, less is more!

    One last thing - for the smaller doses, I found that placing the sliver of film between my lower front gum and lip instead of under my tongue made things easier. Sub will absorb in any oral mucus membrane.
     
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  9. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    wow.. thank you all for your help -- very valuable information
    yes of course I get this through a Dr. -- but I'm reading Dr's prescribe too high and keep you on, bc thats how they get paid.. and it makes sense my Dr wanted CASH or check (sh*t i didn't know people still write checks) so if he's asking for cash.. small red flag goes up

    I go see the Dr for the 2nd time on monday -- the program I was to follow the last 2 weeks was 4mg in am/ with another 4mg in afternoon (for a total of 8mg film a day)

    now it seems like I may try to cut that back to 4mg 1x a day for the next week to break that 2x a day habit PLUS lowering the dosage.. then I'll go from 4mg an entire week to 2 mg for a week.. then try to jump off it --- I never tried subs for this long (2 weeks) and didn't think sides were real... until i actually did my homework and read.. so it got me scared and thats when i joined this site to get more first hand info ----

    I'll tell you it was nice to at least hear that the (sides won't be that bad.. and not as bad as OXY sides) bc the fear alone keeps me on these things.. whether true or not i'll see soon enough, but thank you.. just hearing that made me feel better!

    Again thanks everyone whom jumped in here to provide me some advise as it is and was very much appreciated --- i'll stop back in on monday after and post what the Dr. says I should do the next month -- now regardless of what he says I think i'm going down like I said to 4 mg/ week -- then 2 mg a day for a week.. then off
    so we'll see -- wish me luck and thanks thanks thanks!
     
  10. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    Just remember, sub doctors Do NOT have your best interest at heart. Maybe some do, but they are very mis-informed on suboxone. So even if they do have your interest at heart, they think its best for you to be on High doses of suboxone and for long periods of time or even for LIFE...
    They only have to take this stupid 1 day course (like 8 hours long, if that) and then they can prescribe suboxone. And they get most all of their information from the company who Makes the suboxone (so of course they don't know or don't want to know about ANY of the bad stuff).
    Ive had a few different sub doctors and I never met ONE who had actually gotten people OFF the subs...!

    You may have a few rough days when you start the once per day dosing. But almost all of it is mental. And you Have To get through it if you want to be truly opiate free. Suboxone's half life is so long that when people stop it completely, the actual physical w/d would not even start for 3 days! Also, Think of it this way - if you can't get that dose down to once per day, then how will you ever quit it?

    Your plan sounds good though. Just stick to it! Don't allow yourself to keep pushing it down the road or years of your life will pass you by before you even realize it...
    Try to work on that fear of withdrawal. It's really not that bad, especially if you taper you dose down. You could even go lower than 2mg if you need to. I know people who tapered down to .25mg. (but they were on it much longer).
    You could also try skipping days once you get down to 2mg. Go to every other day then every 3rd day (and even every 4th day if totally necessary).
    Really, the w/d is only as bad as you make it on yourself mentally. Mind over matter - if you don't mind, it don't matter!
     
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  11. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    went to Dr last night

    he suggest I STAY ON SUBS FOR 2-3 MORE MONTHS (8MG PER DAY SPLIT INTO 2 DOSES OF 4MG EACH) THEN TAPER OFF

    THEN AFTER THAT GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE THAT JUST BLOCKS MY OPIATE RECEPTOR (NAXOLONE?) I'M NOT SURE

    MY BUDDY SAYS Nooo WAY AND START TO TAPER TODAY... ITS BEEN EXACTRLY 2 WEEKS TODAY SINCE I STARTED THE SUBS
     
  12. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    My original doctor told me the exact same thing. I was supposed to be on it for 3 months total and then he'd give me naloxone after that. Well, I couldn't deal with the w/d at the end of the 3 months so the doctor suggested that I just stay on the sub for a while longer. I ended up being on the sub for just over 10 years! (and my addiction got worse too. I never even tried H until after being on the sub (not that the sub caused it, I did).
    Now m not saying the same thing will happen to you. I think that I just wasn't ready to be clean. And back then I had myself kind of convinced that I couldn't handle oppie w/d.

    Why did the doctor tell you to stay on it for 2-3 months?

    If you have a strong desire to get clean now, I think you should act on it. It's so easy to just keep pushing the problem down the road. You will get more and more comfortable going to that doctor and taking the sub. I just don't want to see you settle in to that lifestyle. The longer you continue taking sub, the harder it is going to be to stop (at least in my opinion).

    You have to do what you feel is best for yourself. But honestly, it's never going to be any easier to quit then it is Right NOW. It's definitely not going to just be magically easier to quit the sub 2-3 months from now.

    There is really no reason to just stay at 8mg for 2-3 months before you taper. You would be MUCH better off using that 2-3 months to taper all the way down to Zero instead of just staying at that dose. All that staying at 8mg will do is make it harder to quit in a few months.
    Suboxone is very strong stuff.
    8mg of suboxone is equal to taking 240mg - 320mg of Morphine per day! That's probably bigger than your original opiate habit was. Get down to 2mg as quickly as you possibly can (2mg is still equal to 60-100mg of morphine per day) and then slowly taper from there.

    Anyway, that would be my advise... Let us know what you end up doing. Keep posting. It helps.
     
  13. dumbas

    dumbas Active Member

    I have six months off Subs now. Let me tell you it was worse than anything I kicked before. Get out of it early! My cash only doctor told me the same stuff we all have heard. Its only been two weeks. Bite the bullet now...it was tough. I was on them for 10 months. Good luck dude. This site helped me so much. I hope everybody who helped me is still doing well.
     
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  14. getoffsubs

    getoffsubs Well-Known Member

    You know what right and what you should do.

    Please listen to the advice of a bunch of people who've been there and done that. Get down to 2mgs as quickly as possible. I'd highly recommend you start today.
     
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  15. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    thanks for your reply.. I agree with you and so does my buddy
    My Dr suggested I stay on subs... I guess it would be so i don't crave or go back to Perk or oxys -- i was taking anywhere from 1-3 -- 30mg a day(which i thought was a lot until my buddy told me he did 3-4-- 30mg oxy in 1 shot) he was also on subs and his advice is like everyone else, to get off ASAP... so this week i'm going to plan my taper.. i'll try to split the 8mg film nto 3 vs 2... and take 2 per day.. then split it again and again

    I will keep everyone posted.. but after being on Subs for 2 week (total of 8mg a day) do you think I'll have sides? sides are worst, i can't afford to be w/d wick with 14 month old twins at home!

    I appreciate ALL advice given and am going to listen to the board instead of my doctor (who gets paid-- vs you don't)

    thank you and I'll keep everyone posted@!

    ps-- what sides can i expect? do u think since its beem only 2 weeks that I can just jump off now?
     
  16. spring

    spring Administrator

    one to three 30mg percs a day is almost nothing compared to many who use much much higher doses, but w/d is w/d and it still hurts, but I cant understand why the Dr would give you such a large dose of Sub for such a small habit! It's like shooting a mosquito with a cannon!

    You have been given some great advice and I have nothing to add except to stress the fact that the sooner you get off the sub the better off you will be.

    Not sure about you jumping off right now even tho it's only been 2 weeks but because you've been taking such a high dose (8mgs is a high dose), it might not be wise to jump straight off the stuff.

    You have a lot built up in system so I would suggest that you either follow the taper advice you've been given or go as long as you can without and after a couple days if you're having rough w/ds then take a small amount. There is no reason to take it 2 times a day.

    Many people have done it by putting more time between doses and using smaller amounts each time, just dont stretch it out for too long.
     
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  17. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    Yes, you would have w/d if you just stopped. It has nothing really to do with how long you've been on sub. It is the fact that you just switched from oxy to sub. If you would have only went on the bare minimum amount of suboxone I'd maybe say you could stop without much of any w/d. But even then you would have still had some w/d and would have had to maybe go through a bit of w/d when first adjusting to the sub dose. It's kind if a pay now or pay later type of thing...
    But The only way to know for sure if you can stop without much trouble is to try it and see. Remember, opiate w/d won't kill you (even if it feels that way).
    There is no completely pain free way off opiates. I spent years looking for one. It doesn't exist. You Have To be willing to push thru some w/d pains if you truly want to be clean. A lot of times, it's only as bad as you make it on yourself. The mental aspect plays a HUGE role.


    Your habit is arguably bigger right now than it was before you went on the sub...
    8mg of sub is equal to roughly 200mg of oxy! But, the withdrawal off sub is nowhere near as intense as oxy w/d is. It's more of a long drawn out milder w/d (off low doses of sub). And you haven't been on that dose long so the sooner you can get to 2mg the better. I think you'd be surprised at how well 2mg will hold you. Maybe try it? I used to drop from 8mg straight down to 2mg and feel fine. Or if that doesn't work, then try 4mg. Less is really best with sub.

    I don't know exactly what w/d symptoms you will have from tapering. It never really got bad for me until i got under 2mg. But Probably some soreness and lack of energy & motivation. Not sure what else. You have not been on sub for long, so it's hard to say. The oxy is probably still in your system somewhat. So it's not like it would be straight forward sub w/d symptoms (if that makes sense).

    getting clean and avoiding any & all opiate w/d symptoms don't really go together... You can taper as slowly as you need to to be comfortable still. As long as you keep moving forward that is. There will no doubt be some sucky days ahead, but in the end it's worth it. Again, it's only as bad as you make it on yourself. If you sit and stare at the clock all day and think about "when can I take my next dose?" Then it's going to be a nightmare to taper. But if you just make your mind up to do it and then just try to keep your mind occupied and distract yourself when you start thinking about the w/d (etc) then it becomes much easier. But in the end it's all about your desire to truly want to get clean and the willingness to do whatever it takes to get (and stay) clean. To be honest, getting clean is the Easy part. It's staying clean that is hard!
    It may not be hard for yo to taper at all. It all depends on the person...

    Oh also, I used to fold my strips into 8 even pieces. I'd fold it length wise then width wise, then fold each half length wise and width wise so it equaled 8 even pieces. But mine were the much thinner 2mg strips. You could always use a razor to cut it into 8 or more even pieces though. Or better yet just ask your doctor for the 2mg strips. It makes tapering very easy. You can fold each strip into small 1/4mg pieces.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
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  18. vampire

    vampire Well-Known Member

    I have detoxes from sub before. I'd say drop your dose down to 4mg a day then go back to the dr two weeks later and ask to be switched to the 2mg films.
    Drop to 2mg for two weeks
    Then 1mg for two weeks
    Then .5mg
    Then .25

    Don't drop doses down quicker than 1 week at a time. I recvomend two weeks
    This is because of subs long half life. You need to give your body time to adjust.

    From .25 mg you should be able to jump with minimal w/d maybe a little insomnia.
    Also I'd request something to help you sleep for when you jump. Vistaril or trazadone are common for sub detox.

    You will hear a lot of horror stutue about how sub has horrible w/d or it's really long and drawn out but I did not find this to be the case at all.

    For two nights I had minimal restless legs but I was able to fall back to sleep after an hour or so.
    I got down to a really low dose before jumping.
    I think I actually got down to .125 ((approximately , cuz it's really hard to cut it evenly at that point) before I jumped.

    Best of luck!
     
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  19. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    this board is excellent -- really everyone has been great -- I thank you all and i will post an update every few days.. i took 1/3rd of the 8mg film this am.. and i'll actually see how long i can go until i fell i need to take more bc i have no clue what the sub w/d will feel like

    thank you, thank you! there are good people in this world:)
     
  20. spring

    spring Administrator

    So how are you doing these days? Just wondering what dose you're on now and how it's going for you.
     
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