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new to sub

Discussion in 'Detoxing From Buprenorphine/Subutex/Suboxone' started by RS8877, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. leafy blue

    leafy blue Well-Known Member

    Great job, R! Keep it up.

    I did want to respond to your kratom question - I wouldn't recommend taking kratom after or during a sub taper. Hell, I wouldn't recommend ever taking it, unless you are in full on, cold turkey withdrawals and just need to take the edge off a bit. Please know that if you take enough to be "withdrawal free!" then you are just prolonging the inevitable - the eventual healing that your brain has to do after the opiates leave your system.

    What I used it for (very effectively) was for sleeping during acute withdrawal stage - if I took about 4mgs of it I could get 4-5 hours. Basically, I think that kratom can be, and was for me, a lifesaver during the acute phase. But you have to use it very wisely because every time you take it, it sets you back. As freaked said, there is a cross tolerance there and it will set you back in terms of getting through the withdrawals.

    Because you are tapering off sub, I don't think the kratom will be helpful. If you taper correctly, the acute phase should be mild and you wouldn't want to undo any healing you did throughout the tapering process. My recommendation is that you talk to your doctor about some comfort meds - clonodine and maybe some muscle relaxers - but stay away from anything with a cross tolerance to opiates, especially after all your hard work tapering.

    If you have any more specific questions about kratom, let me know. I don't have extensive experience with it, but I did recently use it during a cold-turkey detox I did. I also extensively researched it and tested it as a replacement prior to doing the detox so I knew where I should be in terms of dosage.

    - leafy
     
  2. StuckonSubs

    StuckonSubs Well-Known Member

    Hey, sorry man I haven't been around in a while... I couldn't log in when the forum first made all the changes and I never checked back till now.

    Anyway, glad to hear you are down to 2mg.
    I'd recommend getting the 2mg films sometime soon if possible. It makes tapering way easier.

    What i did with the 2mg films is fold them. You fold them in half both ways (length and width). That creates 4 even .5mg pieces. Then you fold each of the halves in half again. That creates 8 even .25mg pieces. Then if you really want/need, you can fold or cut those little .25mg pieces in half to get .125.

    Then you just have to set a taper schedule and STICK TO IT no matter what. We Always find some excuse to take an extra piece! But you can't do that if you want to complete the taper. You can even start by cutting down every other day for a week, (like 1.5, 2, 1.5, 2 etc) then as your body adjusts you just stick at the 1.5mg per day dose.
    You can go as fast or slow as you want, but just set a schedule and stick to it. You have to learn to fight through the minor w/d symptoms associated with tapering. It gets harder the lower you go, so you need to have the will power and desire to fight thru it.

    You have to get in the mindset that "I'm not going to take a pill to feel better anymore".

    You've been on a while now. Tapering to .25 is your best chance to avoid most of the w/d at this point.
    If you taper that low, the w/d shouldn't be that bad at all. Going off the high doses is where the horror stories come from...

    My experience with sub w/d was much more mild than a short acting opiate. I would NOT consider switching back to a short acting opiate like that one member suggested. That, to me, is moving in the wrong direction. And there's no guarantee you are able (or willing) to stop the short acting opiate once you re-ignite that addiction.

    Honestly, the biggest factor in withdrawal is you and your mind. It's only as bad as you make it on yourself. I truly believe that. That is why people's w/d experience is so widely varied IMO. Some just focus on every little ache and pain and make it way worse on themselves. Others just bite the bullet and say "I can do this, this isn't that bad. I will live" and just plow through. It only lasts a finite amount of time and then it's over.
    You just have to treat it like the flu. When you have the flu, you don't focus on it and freak out. You say "this sucks but it's not a big deal, I will live". And you get through it.

    I was scared of the w/d forever man. I let it control my life, paying $100's for a doctor for years and years on end. Thousands and thousands... It makes me sick to think about now! And it ended up being WAY worse in my fears than it was in real life. I mean, it sucked and all, but it was do-able for sure.

    My main symptoms were restlessness, anxiety and trouble sleeping. It was like a milder version of pain pill w/d. Less intense but a bit more drawn out. Really, it wasn't much worse than a bad flu.

    Ok, I'll try to check back in soon. Ttyl

    Oh and hi everyone! Sorry I haven't been around. I am still clean and sober though. No slip ups or anything.
     
    eyedotz likes this.
  3. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    Hey Everyone -- its been a VERY long time since i posted

    I'm still taking -- literally scared to stop bc scared of the W/D -- i have to work and HAVE to be active with my 4-year old twins !

    I did find a site online that gives you a taper plan ... I just need to set my mind to it and do it !
    Any chance is me not going through WD's ?? i been on subs for about 2 years now -- dose anywhere from 2mg - 6mg --- I have the films and just rip off a small part --- then when i feel i have anxiety I take a larger piece -- i know its NOT the best method -- but it works to keep me Normal!!

    Here's the Site i found: I should give this an honest try!
    http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/taper

    I hope everyone is doing well in your own way!
     
  4. spring

    spring Administrator

    Hi, Sorry you're not getting any replies. ODR is nowhere near as active as it used to be. I have some thoughts on this but unfortunately have to leave for work.
    I just wanted to acknowledge your post and will stop back in later tonight with a hopefully helpful reply.
     
  5. spring

    spring Administrator

    RS8877, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.
    You can do this with little to no downtime if you do it right. It will take a long while to get to zero. Don't rush it, just take your time and follow the detox schedule, slow and steady will do it. If you try to rush it or try dropping your doses too fast you may find yourself upping your dose which defeats the purpose.

    I looked up this article written by Dr Scanlon who himself was addicted at one time. He gives a precise, detailed approach to detoxing his patients from Sub on an outpatient basis. I greatly respect his expertise as he's probably one of the few who actually took the time to study this drug.
    He states what I've always believed from the first day the FDA approved it...that it's an excellent detox tool but was never meant to be a maintenance drug.

    This will at least give you an idea of how to go about it and what to expect.. Check it out. You can do this!
    http://www.pbod.org/detoxing-suboxone-fear-caused-lack-knowledge/
     
  6. RS8877

    RS8877 Member

    OK so i'm back:)
    Spring -- admin ... thank you for always replying and giving positive insight on all of my concerns.

    I'm really at the point i just want off Subs -- WHY? several issues I'm having - now I don't know if all are Sub related -- but only way to find out is to stop all the neds I'm taking 1 by 1!
    I have NO motivation or drive (being Self-employed thats the death of a business)
    I feel like a Zombie -- i could sit and watch TV all day -- and my wife would be like"what are you thinking about?' -- and honestly i'd say "Nothing" bc i truely wasn't think about anything -- I was just watching TV like a zombie --- Kind of how I felt on Zoloft
    Hair loss -- i have looked this up -- and yes i'm 40 and yes i have family history -- my hair is getting really thin the past year -- prior it wasn't bad at all -- now Very noticeable -- and looking online many others feel Subs have some sort of affect on hair loss -- I don't want to be that Bald Dad:)

    So here's the Meds i'm on and here's my Plan:


    1. Pristiq - (was on 50mg) ... just suddenly stopped taking and boy was that a mistake -- never realized I need to taper of anti-depressants -- so anyways I tapered down to 25mg and now this week i'm cutting the 25mg in half to run 12.5mg (roughly bc using a pill cutter)... and after 10 days at 12.5mg I will stop OR go to 12.5 EOD then stop

    2. Wellbutrin - Dr Suggested to try Wellbutrin -- so i'm giving this a shot to see if this helps -- but I told the DR. my goal is to be off ALL meds by end of the year -- so far I can't tell if Wellbutrin is working or not -- I did 150mg month 1 // 300mg month 2 -- and now keeping at 300mg 1/2 through Month 3 -- Once i stop all other meds - this will be my last

    3. Adderral: now believe it or not but the Sub - Dr. thinks adderral will help me with Energy and motivation -- whereas my Prior Sub Dr - kicked me out bc I was taking Modiwake -- but he was against anything like Modiwake -- including Adderral
    Ohh - quick note -- I honestly think the Suboxone Blocks the adderral from working bc prior to subs MAN i would feel adderral hit me and helps me focus at work for Hours -- now -- nothing -- so i'm curious to get off subs and to see if I feel the adderral again!?

    4. Suboxone: so I don't have a set Amount i take -- i get 20 - 8mg strips per month and use all -- the thing is -- and I tell my Dr this -- at times I feel anxious -- and i can't or won't take xanax -- so only drug i have is Suboxone -- so i may take 1/2 of 8mg file instead of 1/4 or 1/3 -- etc --- So once again i say this -- but really mean it this time ... I had to get off pristiq first and i'm about off it -- so subs is next .. as tapering off both at same time would be a PIA
    http://www.helpmegetoffdrugs.com/taper

    I'm going to Follow the Taper program off this site -- I'll copy & paste some so you (whoever is reading ) can see :
    45 Day Taper - Requiring Total of 44 mgs.**
    Date Day Dose
    Monday, June 04, 2018 1 2.00mgs.
    Tuesday, June 05, 2018 2 2.00mgs.
    Wednesday, June 06, 2018 3 2.00mgs.
    Thursday, June 07, 2018 4 2.00mgs.
    Friday, June 08, 2018 5 2.00mgs.
    Saturday, June 09, 2018 6 2.00mgs.
    Sunday, June 10, 2018 7 2.00mgs.
    Monday, June 11, 2018 8 2.00mgs.
    Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9 1.50mgs.
    Wednesday, June 13, 2018 10 1.50mgs.
    Thursday, June 14, 2018 11 1.50mgs.
    Friday, June 15, 2018 12

    So Start at a high of 2mg -- and go all the way down to .13 on day 45 and stop from there.

    Suboxone side effects for me:
    -lack of drive or motivation
    -Feel hair much thinner
    - I can't drink anymore -- honeslty 2 beers and by the 3rd I want to puke -- prior i could easily go out to Dinner and have Wine, drinks , beers -- Now i'll have 3 Beers over a month's span in total -- i basically don't drink at all anymore and I feel its bc of the Subs -- my buddy agrees with me on this -- although others don't

    Questions:

    - Taper 2mg -- dropping by 25% every 7-10 days until i'm at 1mg / then .75mg / then (i'll just copy & paste the last few days of the chart:
    Monday, July 09, 2018 36 0.25mgs.
    Tuesday, July 10, 2018 37 0.25mgs.
    Wednesday, July 11, 2018 38 0.25mgs.
    Thursday, July 12, 2018 39 0.25mgs.
    Friday, July 13, 2018 40 0.25mgs.
    Saturday, July 14, 2018 41 0.13mgs.
    Sunday, July 15, 2018 42 0.13mgs.
    Monday, July 16, 2018 43 0.13mgs.
    Tuesday, July 17, 2018 44 0.13mgs.
    Wednesday, July 18, 2018 45 0.00mgs.

    Question -- ONCE i'm 100% off Subs -- what can i expect to feel like -- I've been taking maybe 2+ years now (i no idea the exact timeframe) but i do know i have Zero or Very little Drive & Motivation --- so life after Subs -- does this come back again?? What is life like -- I mean I feel normal now -- aside from not much drive (but then again that may not be the subs it maybe just me)... but anyone on subs for say 1-3 years -- and then stopped for a while -- do you feel like you have More Motivation, More Energy ... MORE ???

    I don't crave anything now (well except sex from my wife once in a while) ... but once off subs -- do you have any cravings anymore? i don't feel i would -- but again i won't know until i'm at theat point??

    If I follow that taper program from 2mg --down to .13mg and stop -- can I expect any W/D symptoms ?? if so -- what?

    Once again -- I realize i'm not very active on here and broke some promises saying i was going to stop in the past and didn't --- BUT i would like to thank anyone and everyone who has replied and told their story or offering advise / help - etc --- I truely appreciate those that take time out of their day to read about me!? and to give feedback -- So for those providing feedback to me or any others -- you are an angel is disguise -- and everyone should be extremely grateful that there's people in this world who don't know you , never met you, YET they will still go out of their way to help you!! So thank you !!

    I will set a reminder to login back in every week or sooner and maybe update my taper and progress:)

    have a great day!
    bob
     
  7. Fox face

    Fox face Moderator

    Hey! How’s your plan going? Wishing you well!
     

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