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On Ibogaine vs Suboxone

Discussion in 'UROD~Naltrexone~Ibogaine' started by slamminsarah, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. slamminsarah

    slamminsarah New Member

    Hey, listen.... I've been where you are just last month. I realized I am very weak and could not live the rest of my life labeled an addict; fighting uncontrollable urges & cravings the rest of my life. I've kicked before and the 10 days of physical withdrawals is nothing compared to the MAJOR DEPRESSION & PSYCHOLOGICAL ADDICTION!!
    Do yourself A favor and go to YOU-TUBE and start playing videos on IBOGAINE. There is everything there from news reports, to scientist's studies, to addict's testimonials. I can personally vouch for IBOGAINE as I just had a treatment last week! My husband did IBOGAINE in January '11, and not only has he not had an opiate; he has not had coffee or a cigarette since then.

    Ibogaine is not for everyone; you have to be in somewhat good health. No heart or liver problems. Also, it does not work for benzo addictions. If your on suboxone or methadone[the two nastiest drugs out there], you have to switch to short acting opiates, like oxcy, for a week before you can be treated w/ IBOGAINE.

    If anyone would like to talk to me directly, e-mail me. I can refer you to some GREAT providers of IBOGAINE [there is a difference in providers]. Definitely don't order ibogaine [illegal in U.S.] or do IBOGAINE alone.
    Anyone out there battling addiction, please don't let them put you on suboxone. That was the worst mistake for me possible. That made me move up to stronger opiates. Also, suboxone is harder to get off than the oxcy's or heroin I moved up to!!! It's not just a matter of withdrawal symptoms for a week w/ suboxone, it's a matter of withdrawal symptoms for up to A YEAR!! Also, the depression you experience getting off suboxone is like no other I've experienced EVER!!
    Think for yourself, do your own research, just because your doctor thinks it's okay; doesn't make it okay.SUBOXONE IS A DEMON DRUG!! Since i've used it, my memory is gone, I have full blown ADD, all my periods have stopped.......just to name a few.
    There is no money in the cure. Do you realize that if the U.S. had a cure for addiction in a one time treatment such as IBOGAINE that are whole economy would collapse? Think about it. It would trickle down slowly. From hospitals & rehabs to the court systems & the drug companies. That would be just the beginning.

    Anyway, good-luck to you my friend.
    Ibogaine is kind of expensive, but I know people who would be willing to help a fellow addict in need.

  2. spring

    spring Administrator

    Hi Sarah and welcome to ODR. I copied your post from the Pain Meds forum and brought the copy over here because I think it's important enough to stand out.

    The warnings you give about Suboxone may help save an addict from becoming addicted to a much tougher opiate than they are currently using. Yes, it's helpful and maybe even a life-saver in some instances, but in my opinion, it's not a drug that should be taken lightly and Rxed to every addict who has a problem with opiates.

    As for the Ibogaine, though I have never been there myself, I know of enough people who were helped by it. As long as it's done legally outside the US with the help of professionals, I think it can be a great tool to help an addict get a jump start on their recovery.

    I remember reading some research the US did on Ibogaine a few years ago. Turns out it worked too well and the results were swept under the carpet for some reason..(which doesnt surprise me for some reason). I havent recently tried looking for those reports that I read so long ago and I guess I should try to find them to back up my words.

    I know some don't agree with my views on Ibogaine. I know enough about it to know that it's not like taking an LSD trip as some believe, and it's not meant to be an end-all/cure-all med for drug addiction. And it's a lot more than just a detox aid. From what I know, it's a great help for the physical part of detox, but is also a 'detox for the mind'. It gives a person some insight into the mental aspect of their addiction and their life in general, so it gives the patient a head start on recovery.
    It's simply another tool in the arsenal of tools that help an addict get to a place where they can put active addiction behind them and get on with the business of recovery and life itself.
  3. Torushima

    Torushima Well-Known Member

    I just downloaded a bundle of resources on ibogaine—from peer-viewed scientific studies on its effectiveness in treating opiate addiction to user testimonials—and it appears that the (American) National Institute on Drug Abuse funded studies on ibogaine (early-1990s) but abandoned further research for a few reasons, including budgetary problems and previous reports that cited a risk of brain damage and fatal heart arrhythmia in patients with pre-existing health conditions.

    I haven’t gone through all of the material yet, but am happy to provide the links to where I got it from if anyone needs it.
  4. spring

    spring Administrator

    Thanks for the link Jnger. I'm still at a preschool level in computer lingo...or maybe I'm up to first grade...so I'm not real clear on what you meant by getting in trouble for downloading. Can't I just access it and read it? I have a program called uTorrent on my PC. Is that what you're talking about using?

    I thought the reports I read were from research older than the early 90s, but guess not. We may be talking about the same reports. From what I remember though, the results were all postive but nothing further was done after the research.
    Someone, (maybe an investigative journalist?), had come across the research results and started raising questions as to why it was all being ignored. Maybe it was like you said..because of "budget cuts", at least that may have been the excuse used.
    I dont know, maybe they coulda bought a few less $2,500. office chairs or something to make sure there was enough in the budget for addiction treatment reasearch. But as I read in another post recently, our country would collapse if everybody got clean. Just look at how many jobs alone would be lost in rehabs. methadone clinics, addiction specialists, not to mention the tv reality shows that generate a bundle and the pockets that get lined from the imports, the cash flow from the streets, the list is long.
  5. Torushima

    Torushima Well-Known Member

    Many people shy away from downloading content because—aside from content released through a Creative Commons Licensing—stuff is copyrighted and subjected to intellectual property laws.

    Sometimes folks who have downloaded hot new movies and music will receive a notice in mail saying “Don’t do that” from their service providers.

    I thought that I’d highlight that in case it would act as an disincentive for people to download this valuable information.

    Yep, uTorrent works.

    You're probably right. There is so much material here—it probably contains the answer to your question. I haven’t gotten through much of it yet, but it’s definitely a goldmine.

    I agree—I think “budget cuts” is a euphemism for “conflicts with the status quo.”

    And don’t forget about the cashflow from the prison system—the United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world.

    According to this 2007 report from the U.S. Department of Justice, states spend over $6 billion per year to house the nation’s 253,000+ drug offenders, a financial figure that is roughly the same amount allotted by the Obama Administration in the 2011 Federal Budget for cancer research.

    Food for thought.
  6. AumuA

    AumuA Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  7. spring

    spring Administrator

    The post (Jingers) with the link is gone. This is nothing personal J. Apparently it's not considered safe according to our mods. Like I said I understand very little of the technical computer stuff including a lot of the lingo.
  8. Bonita

    Bonita Well-Known Member

    spring.... do you have a safey program that will scan before you download? Not that it will catch everything but will most.
  9. Torushima

    Torushima Well-Known Member

    I understand completely, no problem.

    If anyone wants any files (scientific studies, testimonials) on ibogaine, just send me a PM and I'll get them to you.
  10. AumuA

    AumuA Well-Known Member

    Definitely was not my intention to have anything taken down, sorry about that.
  11. spring

    spring Administrator

    spring.... do you have a safey program that will scan before you download? Not that it will catch everything but will most.
    Yes I do on my personal PC, but everybody else might not have good security. The mod who drew my attention to the link says it's not considered safe. Plus there's this issue about copyrights.

    Rather than try to explain something I barely understand, I'll just post the info from the mod.
  12. spring

    spring Administrator

    You didnt do anything to cause the link to be taken down John. It didnt have anything to do with your post..lol. When I quoted your comment and said "this is nothing personal J". I meant 'J' as in Jinger, not as in you, John.

    Thanks for the offer Jinger. It's probably a hassle to do it this way, but most appreciated.
  13. spring

    spring Administrator

    Bonita, your post in Kellys thread was so loaded that I had to bring some of it over here in order to go off on a tangent.

    Funny you mentioned that there are probably cures already in existence...I was talking to my local health food store owner just a couple weeks ago about the petition that's going around to protest the banning of supplements and certain vitamins without an RX, mainly VitaminC which has been proven many times over to cure and treat many diseases (in the right form and quantity). Now that the country is going natural again, of course big pharma is getting nervous so why not make a law that requires supplements and vitamins to be regulated thru prescriptions!? or banned altogether!

    He says that yes, money is a big factor in the reason why certain cures are withheld from the general public, but the main goal underneath it all is population control. A person has to take their life into their own hands these days and research and question everything. It's sad that there is so little trust anymore, but it's the truth.

    The Tuskegee syphilis experiment....another example... what's been done to our prison inmates over the years, selling their blood in mass quantities for profit whether it tested negative for disease or not while the powers that be looked the other way as long as it generated huge profits..And to make it worse, the release of inmates who were known to be infected with various forms of Hepatitis, aids and TB...but were never treated.

    I could rant on but have to get going. To be continued at some point...
  14. annamiller3000

    annamiller3000 New Member

    Hi all. I used Ibogaine and it helped me.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  15. snapper

    snapper Well-Known Member

    I'm another knotch in Ibo's wompin stick!!
  16. lil_miss

    lil_miss Member

    So I just went and read up on Ibogaine, all I can say is "WOW'
  17. Bonita

    Bonita Well-Known Member

    Hey lil, look at myeboga.com. Lots of good info there. I am one that thinks it a great tool for recovery, not cure but surly a huge leg up for me. It helped me save my life, showed me what I needed to do to keep my soberity. Won't take away free will but never seen it fail anyone as far as detox,. Have seen a few not take advantage of the time it gives you free of graving to use that time to grow up. Ibo dosnt fail but people do.
  18. Torushima

    Torushima Well-Known Member

    “Ibogaine doesn’t fail, but people do.”

    That’s probably the most succinct analysis of the treatment that I’ve ever come across.

    Bravo, Bonita.

    For the anti-ibogaine crowd that frequents these boards, here’s some background info:

    Ibogaine is a naturally-occurring substance and that’s probably the motivating factor as to why corporations haven’t stepped forward to legitimize and incorporate it into the pharmaceutical mainstream despite of its reported curative properties.

    Also note its illegality. It was classified as a Schedule 1 drug (alongside DMT, LSD and mescaline) by the United States government in 1967 as part of their blanket crackdown on psychedelic substances.

    There’s no conspiracy here: It doesn’t make economic sense to research and develop a naturally-occurring illegal substance that is prohibitively-difficult to patent.

    The process towards a substance’s FDA approval is long, expensive and is funded by grants by those who stand to profit from its eventual use in the marketplace.

    From a strictly-economic perspective, it makes more sense to fund research for synthetic- and semi-synthetic substances that can be legally patented, trademarked and distributed—like oxycodone (OxyContin, Purdue), buprenorphine (Suboxone, Reckitt Benckiser) and, say, paroxetine (Paxil, GlaxoSmithKline)—than those that cannot.

    For almost fifty years, ibogaine’s biggest advocate, Howard Lotsoff, was a heroin addict who stumbled across the miracle powers of the hallucinogen in 1962 because he needed a fix. After the drug wore off, he and his six buddies found themselves free from opiate cravings.

    After years of lobbying, Lotsoff secured a patent and enlisted the help of Deborah Mash, a neurologist and pharmacist at the University of Miami, and the two managed to get the Food and Drug Administration to approve clinical trials in 1993.

    Two years (and eight test subjects) later, the National Institute for Drug Abuse (NIDA) yanked the funds after learning that high doses in rats resulted in brain damage; the trials also hinted towards fatal heart arrhythmia for those with pre-existing medical conditions (and seizures for alcoholics and those addicted to benzos).

    According to Kenneth Alper, a oft-cited associate professor of psychiatry at the New York School of Medicine, contractual disputes between Lotsoff and Mash plagued the project: Lotsoff claimed that Mash’s research infringed on his patent, a common roadblock at the intersection of scientific research and patent laws regardless of the industry.

    Lotsof applied for five additional grants, but each was denied. Both he and Mash went on to spread the gospel of ibogaine: he via mentoring and clinical work in Europe and she with a private clinic in St. Kitts.

    NIPA’s decision makes perfect sense in terms of a risk management perspective.

    Is there more to the story? Did Big Pharma use its influence with the feds to put the boots to the project? Were reports of the aforementioned risks exaggerated? No clue. A good place to start would be to dig up some statistics that showcase what other research projects the NIDA killed and why.

    Since then—in the United States, at least—research has been conducted privately and disseminated in peer-reviewed journals. Since it is underfunded private research conducted on an illegal substance, the results are easily ignored by the medical mainstream because the studies haven’t been conducted by federally-affiliated agencies.

    While most researchers agree that ibogaine interrupts the process of active addiction by increasing production of a protein that dampens cravings, they also admit that they still need to conduct a scientifically-controlled study to further determine its effectiveness over the long-term—a long-term blind study, for example, that tracks an experimental group (those who took the drug) vs. a control group (those who didn’t) through a detox and subsequent 12-step program

    That would cost $2.4 million, according to David Nutt, head of the UK's Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs, which no one has yet coughed up.

    Lotsoff died in 2010. As it stands now, researchers are working on a theory that ibogaine is a long-acting, time-released substance that stores itself in the fat cells as a future bulwark against opiate usage; they’re also tinkering with a watered-down form of the substance that removes the hallucinations from the experience, which they claim are merely an unimportant side effect.

    All of that being said, ibogaine is a tool for detox, which is just one component of recovery. Many posters here conflate the two concepts:

    There is no “cure” for addiction: those promoting their stories of detoxing with the help of ibogaine aren’t claiming that they’ve found a magical “cure.” What folks have been sharing on these boards, however, are their stories of how they’ve physically detoxed with ibogaine as the first step in many towards a healthy and sustainable future in the fight against a chronic physical and psychological disease.
  19. movazi

    movazi Well-Known Member

    Corporate America is more daring, brutal and efficient than you give it credit for. It does not shy away from making profit just because something is natural. Opium is natural yet they have made hundreds of various pills out of or mimicking it, Penecillin , the grand daddy of all, is produced by a fungus (natural process of fungus under stress) , Dioxin ,the most popular heart medication making $billions for its maker was synthesized from Digitalis Purpuria, a beautiful flower, etc. , etc.

    The fact the FDA approved initial clinical trial for Latsof speaks volumes. Such trials though were not completed because of contractual disputes between Laskof and his investors and later due to lack of financing by others he chased after. FDA indeed granted Latsof two patents. Is this fact alone not enough to see things ? What does our capitalist system tells you when no one steps forward to grab potential benefits of a patent that has a supposedly multi $billion market potential ?

    Addiction is a huge market, as Sube if a proof, had there been anything out there corporate America would have been all over it making billions in the process. You are reading the big pharma wrong. I find it naive to say big Pharma is shying away from ibogain because it is a plant. So what if it is a plant? these guys run this country, do you honestly think if iboga worked that these vultures would let go making billions from something just because you say it is a plant?

  20. Torushima

    Torushima Well-Known Member

    Note the quantifiers probably and prohibitively in my original statements: prohibitively-difficult and prohibitively-expensive—not impossible.

    I didn't really want to get into international patent law, but if it helps for clarification purposes, I will. Yes, dioxin is a chemical compound derived from the digitalis purpurea. You can patent synthetic molecules related to natural substances, or natural substances derived by a very specific, unnatural and complicated man-made process.

    But again: note the quantifier prohibitively-expensive. The process to patent the synthetic molecules related to ibogaine is too extensive and expensive to warrant doing so for commercial purposes—primarily because unlike suboxone or methadone maintenance, ibogaine appears to be a one-time experience.

    No liquid handcuffs, which means no perpetual gravy train for the manufacturers. Same for patients who rely on heart medication.

    On this we appear to agree.

    To clarify for future readers, I’ll edit my thesis to say this:

    It doesn’t make economic sense to research and develop a naturally-occurring illegal substance that is prohibitively-difficult to patent—particularly one that may effectively eliminate physical withdrawals for opiate users, a mechanism that would act as a potential atom bomb to the methadone and suboxone manufacturers.

    Thanks for your comments.

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